Discussion:
USPS WARNING!!!
(too old to reply)
Sir F.A. Rien
2016-04-21 15:31:16 UTC
Permalink
For those who do not know;
NEVER EVER SEND REGISTERED to the USPS.
<http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2009/pb22259/html/updt_004.htm>

Of FIVE items sent from Europe, all but one were apparently stolen
in the ISC NEW YORK NY(USPS) 'sorting centre.

There are other methods, including International Tracked.
David E. Ross
2016-04-21 23:07:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
For those who do not know;
NEVER EVER SEND REGISTERED to the USPS.
<http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2009/pb22259/html/updt_004.htm>
Of FIVE items sent from Europe, all but one were apparently stolen
in the ISC NEW YORK NY(USPS) 'sorting centre.
There are other methods, including International Tracked.
Are you sure that information is current? The linked article is seven
years old.
--
David E. Ross
<http://www.rossde.com/>.

Sarah Palin claims Bill Nye (the "Science Guy") is no more
a scientist than she is. Nye has a Bachelor of Science degree
in mechanical engineering. Palin has degree in communications
with an emphasis on journalism. Somehow, engineering seems to
be more scientific than journalism.
Sir F.A. Rien
2016-04-22 14:35:19 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 Apr 2016 16:07:55 -0700, "David E. Ross"
Post by David E. Ross
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
For those who do not know;
NEVER EVER SEND REGISTERED to the USPS.
<http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2009/pb22259/html/updt_004.htm>
Of FIVE items sent from Europe, all but one were apparently stolen
in the ISC NEW YORK NY(USPS) 'sorting centre'.
There are other methods, including International Tracked.
Are you sure that information is current? The linked article is seven
years old.
Absolutely, positively certain !!!

IF it were NOT 'current', why would the USPS have it on the site and
refer to it in 'explanation'?

I currently have a sender who, against advice, sent an 1890 postcard
REGISTERED from Germany. It arrived at the NYC ISC facility on 24th
MARCH and hasn't been scanned since.

Same with two others from the UK before I found out about this
alteration [err REDUCTION] in 'service', as well as one from Canada.

On the CANADIAN sending I got a direct response from a USPS
'representative' directing me to the 'regulation'. All that happened
in 2015, other than the current one from Germany.
Victor Manta
2016-04-25 22:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
For those who do not know;
NEVER EVER SEND REGISTERED to the USPS.
<http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2009/pb22259/html/updt_004.htm>
Of FIVE items sent from Europe, all but one were apparently stolen
in the ISC NEW YORK NY(USPS) 'sorting centre.
I don't see a direct relationship between the contents of this 2009 revision
of the " Mailing Standards of the United States Postal Service,
International Mail Manual (IMM®) section 752.13" and the warning "NEVER EVER
SEND REGISTERED to the USPS."

The fact that the compensation was limited seven years ago cannot be
considered as an invitation to the (rather correctly paid) postal workers to
break the law and eventually lose their jobs.

Just FYI, I received on time and in good shape many registered letter, with
or without philatelic contents, that were sent from Europe to US. AFAIK none
was lost.

Victor Manta, PWO

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Sir F.A. Rien
2016-04-26 15:26:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Victor Manta
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
For those who do not know;
NEVER EVER SEND REGISTERED to the USPS.
<http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2009/pb22259/html/updt_004.htm>
Of FIVE items sent from Europe, all but one were apparently stolen
in the ISC NEW YORK NY(USPS) 'sorting centre.
I don't see a direct relationship between the contents of this 2009 revision
of the " Mailing Standards of the United States Postal Service,
International Mail Manual (IMM®) section 752.13" and the warning "NEVER EVER
SEND REGISTERED to the USPS."
The fact that the compensation was limited seven years ago cannot be
considered as an invitation to the (rather correctly paid) postal workers to
break the law and eventually lose their jobs.
As usual, you seem to half read and leap straight into confusion:

To help you and others out, THIS is the appropriate sentence!
"Therefore, we will no longer handle inbound international
Registered Mail items in the domestic Registered Mail system."

This clearly means that ONCE into the USPS mailstream it will NOT be
tracked, it will NOT require a signature, it will NOT have any
protection from theft!

It WILL attract the crooked mail handlers to purloin the item !!!

As clearly said above, the theives are batting 80% of those European
"Registered" items sent to me.

I do wish you the best in continuing to not lose items.
Victor Manta
2016-04-26 22:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
For those who do not know;
NEVER EVER SEND REGISTERED to the USPS.
http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2009/pb22259/html/updt_004.htm
You are wrong because I read the whole IMM revision article. At the end we
will see who leapt into what.
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
To help you and others out, THIS is the appropriate sentence!
"Therefore, we will no longer handle inbound international
Registered Mail items in the domestic Registered Mail system."
This clearly means that ONCE into the USPS mailstream it will NOT be
tracked, it will NOT require a signature, it will NOT have any
protection from theft!
Thank you for your explanation. Let's read the next paragraph of the IMM
Revision, that apparently you have overseen:

"International senders of Registered Mail items will con­tinue to receive
features that distinguish this service. For example, the Postal Service will
verify receipt of a Registered Mail item to the postal administration of
origin. In addition, the Postal Service will obtain a signature at the time
of delivery in accordance with domestic standards governing the delivery of
accountable mail. Also, senders will continue to have access to the inquiry
process and may receive indemnity based on UPU limits for loss, damage, or
missing contents."

Because you write, screaming in uppercase, that "... it will NOT require a
signature ..." (which is in contradiction with the paragraph quoted above),
I may wonder if you ever received a registered letter from Europe through
the USPS.

So far I had to _sign_ for every registered letter that was handed over to
me by the USPS.

Victor Manta
Sir F.A. Rien
2016-04-28 15:54:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Victor Manta
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
For those who do not know;
NEVER EVER SEND REGISTERED to the USPS.
http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2009/pb22259/html/updt_004.htm
You are wrong because I read the whole IMM revision article. At the end we
will see who leapt into what.
There is no 'END' ... with this new lowering of service I have lost
FOUR, that's 1 ... 2 ... 3 ... 4 !!! items of value. Yes they were
insured. Yes neither I nor dealer suffered more than postage loss.
However, if you count the loss of a large margin, VLH MINT GB 2d
Blue as 'nothing to worry about' ... !!!
Post by Victor Manta
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
To help you and others out, THIS is the appropriate sentence!
"Therefore, we will no longer handle inbound international
Registered Mail items in the domestic Registered Mail system."
This clearly means that ONCE into the USPS mailstream it will NOT be
tracked, it will NOT require a signature, it will NOT have any
protection from theft!
Thank you for your explanation. Let's read the next paragraph of the IMM
"International senders of Registered Mail items will con­tinue to receive
features that distinguish this service. For example, the Postal Service will
verify receipt of a Registered Mail item to the postal administration of
origin.
Much noise signifyting nothig to do with the situation ONCE into the
USPS maw.
Post by Victor Manta
In addition, the Postal Service will obtain a signature at the time
of delivery in accordance with domestic standards governing the delivery of
accountable mail.
Very presumptive and that's only if it SHOULD IT NOT BE STOLEN!
Post by Victor Manta
Also, senders will continue to have access to the inquiry
process and may receive indemnity based on UPU limits for loss, damage, or
missing contents."
Such 'inquiry process' consists of some clerk sending a form to my
LOCAL POSTMISTRESS who has absolutely no knowledge of what in blazes
is happening over 2,000 miles away!

In addition, I've contacted the 'main Postmaster' [we're a
sub-postoffice] for the area. She tried, but no help there.
I've gone to the Regional Center and even to the Postal Inspectors.

IN ALL CASES, it 'dies on the vine'.
Post by Victor Manta
Because you write, screaming
{ROTFLMAOIS - but it did make you read!]
Post by Victor Manta
in uppercase, that "... it will NOT require a
signature ..." (which is in contradiction with the paragraph quoted above),
{and is in agreement of what was told to me by the clerk, Postmaster
and regional center!}
Post by Victor Manta
I may wonder if you ever received a registered letter from Europe through
the USPS.
ONE ONLY, as said before - but again I guess you missed that too!
Post by Victor Manta
So far I had to _sign_ for every registered letter that was handed over to
me by the USPS.
So have I ... what's news about that?
The OPERATIVE condition is "I had to _sign_ for every registered
letter that was handed over". Mine were -=never=- 'handed over!

THAT is the point.

Since £250 is now the upper limit on ITS [which IS usually handled
properly by the toastposties, anything above that, not covered by
the seller's Private Insurance Carrier, is sent FedEx.

It's not the hassle, the lack of courtesy, the reduction in service
that galls me the most - it's the loss of a special philatelic item
wanted for my collection.
Victor Manta
2016-04-29 01:34:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
Post by Victor Manta
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
For those who do not know;
NEVER EVER SEND REGISTERED to the USPS.
http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2009/pb22259/html/updt_004.htm
In addition, the Postal Service will obtain a signature at the time
of delivery in accordance with domestic standards governing the delivery of
accountable mail. (from regulations - vm)
Very presumptive and that's only if it SHOULD IT NOT BE STOLEN!
For me the PS wording is very clear, and this means that your assertion "it
will NOT require a signature" is just wrong! It's understandable for someone
who hasn't the first hand US experience.
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
Post by Victor Manta
Also, senders will continue to have access to the inquiry
process and may receive indemnity based on UPU limits for loss, damage, or
missing contents." (from regulations - vm)
Such 'inquiry process' consists of some clerk sending a form to my
LOCAL POSTMISTRESS who has absolutely no knowledge of what in blazes
is happening over 2,000 miles away!
Knowledge or not, I understand that you or somebody else nevertheless
received the due compensation for the loss of the registered letters. Of
course one can expect better than that.
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
I currently have a sender who, against advice, sent an 1890 postcard
REGISTERED from Germany. It arrived at the NYC ISC facility on 24th
MARCH and hasn't been scanned since. (your answer to Mr. Ross)
Hearsay. How do you know that it arrived at the "NYC ISC facility"? May I
remind you that it is you who wrote: "This clearly means that ONCE into the
USPS mailstream it will NOT be tracked ...".
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
Same with two others from the UK before I found out about this alteration
[err REDUCTION] in 'service', as well as one from Canada. (idem)
Hearsay about at least the registered letter sent from Canada because you
couldn't inquire personally about something that you didn't send.
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
Of FIVE items sent from Europe, all but one were apparently stolen in the
ISC NEW YORK NY(USPS) 'sorting centre.
To summarize, we don't know:

- how many of letters did you send personally but probably not all of them.
- how many were really stolen (many letters get lost differently)
- if the letters that eventually disappeared were lost/stolen/misdirected
"in the ISC NEW YORK NY(USPS) 'sorting centre" and not somewhere else
(remember what you said, no tracking available in US).

Many things happen with letters but my experience tells me that your extreme
warning doesn't necessarily reflect the real situation. For what it's worth,
I got _today_ in NYC a registered letter from EU. It was sent 8 days ago. It
looks that the devil is not so black as it is said.

Last but not least, since 2009 USPS does strictly what is required by the
UPU and not more, as it did previously. Only a reliable statistics that
compares the situation before 2009 with that after 2009 can tell us more.
Unfortunately, I couldn't find one but maybe a participant in RCSD could
help to find it.

Victor
Sir F.A. Rien
2016-04-29 16:38:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Victor Manta
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
Very presumptive and that's only if it SHOULD IT NOT BE STOLEN!
For me the PS wording is very clear, and this means that your assertion "it
will NOT require a signature" is just wrong! It's understandable for someone
who hasn't the first hand US experience.
Well yes, "for you", but for me, having had onle ONE, that's "!", a
-=single=- overseas REGISTERED ever make it through the USPS maw, it
arrived NOT NEEDING A SIGNATURE. per the USPS posttoastie!

So, as it seems alwys when a discussion isn't to you favoe, you
invent reasons - "It's understandable for someone who hasn't the
first hand US experience."

After 75 years living in the US, I do have DAILY 'First Hand
Experience" with the USPS failures.
Post by Victor Manta
Knowledge or not, I understand that you or somebody else nevertheless
received the due compensation for the loss of the registered letters. Of
course one can expect better than that.
Absolutely, such as NOT losing the mail in the first place!
Such as HONEST, vetted employees.
Post by Victor Manta
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
I currently have a sender who, against advice, sent an 1890 postcard
REGISTERED from Germany. It arrived at the NYC ISC facility on 24th
MARCH and hasn't been scanned since. (your answer to Mr. Ross)
Hearsay. How do you know that it arrived at the "NYC ISC facility"? May I
remind you that it is you who wrote: "This clearly means that ONCE into the
USPS mailstream it will NOT be tracked ...".
They DO track the ENTRY, then it goes ... 'missing'. And what the
hades is "HEARSAY" about looking up the tracking number on the USPS
site? Damn if you aren't a carbon copy of Hillarity!
Post by Victor Manta
Hearsay about at least the registered letter sent from Canada because you
couldn't inquire personally about something that you didn't send.
Why would I SEND Registered TO MYSELF? Are you completely off your
meds? Again with the HEARSAY, when again you can look up,the
tracking numbers on the USPS site and see that they arrived INTO the
US and then disappeard NEVE to be scanned again OR DELIVERED to me!
Post by Victor Manta
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
Of FIVE items sent from Europe, all but one were apparently stolen in the
ISC NEW YORK NY(USPS) 'sorting centre.
No, YOU don't know because as usaal you don't read!
Post by Victor Manta
- how many of letters did you send personally but probably not all of them.
NONE as they were SENT TO ME!
Post by Victor Manta
- how many were really stolen (many letters get lost differently)
AH that's possible, but ALL passing through the SAME entry point?
ALL REGISTERED?
ALL to be 'checked' by a crooked posttoastie for value?
Post by Victor Manta
- if the letters that eventually disappeared were lost/stolen/misdirected
"in the ISC NEW YORK NY(USPS) 'sorting centre" and not somewhere else
(remember what you said, no tracking available in US).
Doens't mean they weren't STOLEN elsewhere, but with ALL going
'bye-bye' from the same handling point?
Post by Victor Manta
Many things happen with letters but my experience tells me that your extreme
warning doesn't necessarily reflect the real situation. For what it's worth,
I got _today_ in NYC a registered letter from EU. It was sent 8 days ago. It
looks that the devil is not so black as it is said.
Lucky you!
Post by Victor Manta
Last but not least, since 2009 USPS does strictly what is required by the
UPU and not more, as it did previously.
Exactly, they do the MINIMUM possible!
with all the automated processes, even if it is no longer held in a
'separate bag' processing, why the bloody hell can't it be at least
SCANNED?

BTW ... Why does it now take the USPS 4-5 days to move a piece of
mail 18 miles?

Guess your statistical search missed:
<http://tinyurl.com/j4rty67>
<http://tinyurl.com/gtvpjhk>
<http://tinyurl.com/3w2w5qe>

Please do consult your health providers and seek an equinectomy as
soon as possible.
Victor Manta
2016-04-29 20:44:22 UTC
Permalink
"Sir F.A. Rien" wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...

<<
For those who do not know;
NEVER EVER SEND REGISTERED to the USPS.
<http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2009/pb22259/html/updt_004.htm>
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
Post by Victor Manta
Last but not least, since 2009 USPS does strictly what is required by the
UPU and not more, as it did previously.
Exactly, they do the MINIMUM possible!
with all the automated processes, even if it is no longer held in a
'separate bag' processing, why the bloody hell can't it be at least
SCANNED?
I suppose this happens because it is easier for USPS.
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
BTW ... Why does it now take the USPS 4-5 days to move a piece of
mail 18 miles?
See the explanation above.
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
Guess your statistical search missed: <http://tinyurl.com/j4rty67>
<http://tinyurl.com/gtvpjhk> <http://tinyurl.com/3w2w5qe>
Bad guess: I found no "before 2009 - after 2009" statistics inside. Thanks
anyway. It is commonplace that some postal items were and always will get
lost, as it was/is for planes and even for lovers.
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
Please do consult your health providers and seek an equinectomy as soon as
possible.
Did you say "equinectomy"? Well, this could explain all your mail related
problems.
Sir F.A. Rien
2016-04-30 15:39:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
For those who do not know;
NEVER EVER SEND REGISTERED to the USPS.
<http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2009/pb22259/html/updt_004.htm>
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
Post by Victor Manta
Last but not least, since 2009 USPS does strictly what is required by the
UPU and not more, as it did previously.
Exactly, they do the MINIMUM possible!
with all the automated processes, even if it is no longer held in a
'separate bag' processing, why the bloody hell can't it be at least
SCANNED?
I suppose this happens because it is easier for USPS.
Yep, besides they don't have to be -=reswponsible=- for their
employee's thefts.
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
BTW ... Why does it now take the USPS 4-5 days to move a piece of
mail 18 miles?
See the explanation above.
What does 'easier' have to do with taking days to deliver mail?
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
Bad guess: I found no "before 2009 - after 2009" statistics inside. Thanks
anyway. It is commonplace that some postal items were and always will get
lost, as it was/is for planes and even for lovers.
Yes, by posttoastie thievery!

NO .. you found MORE evidence of concentrated THEFT at the NY ISC!

BTW, we're now at 5 of 6 -=REGISTERED=- having be 'easier' to steal!
It's 5 weeks since the one from Germany entered the USPS den of
thieves. Count that one GONE.
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
Please do consult your health providers and seek an equinectomy as soon as
possible.
Did you say "equinectomy"? Well, this could explain all your mail related
problems.
Quite, I agree. Definitely they are subject to that disease - as are
their staunch defenders!

So, since the USPS removes the protections you think you are
giving/getting by PAYING MORE for -=REGISTERED=- ...

NEVER, EVER, SEND REGISTERED through the USPS from overseas.
Victor Manta
2016-05-01 13:48:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
So, since the USPS removes the protections you think you are
giving/getting by PAYING MORE for -=REGISTERED=- ...

The part of the protection that wasn't in compliance with the UPU
regulations was removed by the USPS already 7 (seven!) years ago. The most
important parts, like the signature requirement at reception and the
compensation for the lost mail are in place. This justifies to pay more for
registered letters.
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
NEVER, EVER, SEND REGISTERED through the USPS from overseas.
You can scream in uppercase as much as you want but your warning is _not_
confirmed by at least 15 (!) registered letters that were sent from overseas
and were received by me in NYC in 2015 - 2016.
Sir F.A. Rien
2016-05-01 15:58:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
So, since the USPS removes the protections you think you are
giving/getting by PAYING MORE for -=REGISTERED=- ...
The part of the protection that wasn't in compliance with the UPU
regulations was removed by the USPS already 7 (seven!) years ago. The most
important parts, like the signature requirement at reception and the
compensation for the lost mail are in place. This justifies to pay more for
registered letters.
You get MORE protection and BETTER coverage with LOWER cost ITS !!!

Furthermore, it would seem that many of the other UPU countries
didn't take the MINIMUM possible course. They also, and that's their
problem, do not advise their customers of the danger of sending
Registered through the USPS from overseas.

NONE of the senders knew that once into the USPS MAW, it would not
be protected, handled as proper REGISTERED, and became an open
invitation for THEFT.

What the USPS's MINIMUM necessary does is to remove it from the
accountable, tracked, separate handling that, -=in the past=-
guaranteed delivery.

NOW, it's a notice "Here I am , I'm VALUABLE, STEAL ME!!!"
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
NEVER, EVER, SEND REGISTERED through the USPS from overseas.
You can scream in uppercase as much as you want but your warning is _not_
confirmed by at least 15 (!) registered letters that were sent from overseas
and were received by me in NYC in 2015 - 2016.
And over the same period 5 of 6 to me were STOLEN! ALL apparently in
the same NYC ISC facility!

"Screaming" is typing ALL THE TEXT OF THE WHOLE MESSAGE in caps!
A few words is emphasis, as you would RAISE your voice to make a
point!

It also helps those who fail to read correctly the first time! <G>

FWIW - I presume you'll go to the upcoming World Exhibition, if so
do have a look at the -= 1890 Penny Postage Jubilee =- exhibit.
Victor Manta
2016-05-02 03:58:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
FWIW - I presume you'll go to the upcoming World Exhibition, if so
do have a look at the -= 1890 Penny Postage Jubilee =- exhibit.
This is serious stuff indeed - noted the #674 - congrats for the good
company! Will try to take a look.

I'm waiting for info concerning my accreditation badge.

Victor
Sir F.A. Rien
2016-05-02 14:42:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Victor Manta
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
FWIW - I presume you'll go to the upcoming World Exhibition, if so
do have a look at the -= 1890 Penny Postage Jubilee =- exhibit.
This is serious stuff indeed - noted the #674 - congrats for the good
company! Will try to take a look.
I'm waiting for info concerning my accreditation badge.
Enjoy. Health prevents me from flying across.
That exhibit is from John Davies, it's in the 'OPEN'
competition and about at then end of the 4000 # Frames.
IIRC, about #4980 on.
Victor Manta
2016-05-02 20:07:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
Post by Victor Manta
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
FWIW - I presume you'll go to the upcoming World Exhibition, if so
do have a look at the -= 1890 Penny Postage Jubilee =- exhibit.
This is serious stuff indeed - noted the #674 - congrats for the good
company! Will try to take a look.
Enjoy. Health prevents me from flying across.
That exhibit is from John Davies, it's in the 'OPEN'
competition and about at then end of the 4000 # Frames.
IIRC, about #4980 on.
I'm sorry to hear about your health problems.

This is what I previously found:

"14. OPEN. ... 674. A Jubilee Reminiscence. The 1890 Penny Postage Jubilee,
John Davies, United Kingdom"

http://www.ny2016.org/images/ny2016articles/2016-04-18-linns-preview.pdf

Victor Manta, PWO

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philatelic Webmasters Organization: http://pwmo.org/
Art on Stamps: http://artonstamps.org/
Romania by Stamps: http://marci-postale.com/
Communism on Stamps: http://reds-on.postalstamps.biz/
Spanish North Africa: http://www.sna-on.postalstamps.biz/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sir F.A. Rien
2016-05-03 15:20:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Victor Manta
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
Post by Victor Manta
Post by Sir F.A. Rien
FWIW - I presume you'll go to the upcoming World Exhibition, if so
do have a look at the -= 1890 Penny Postage Jubilee =- exhibit.
This is serious stuff indeed - noted the #674 - congrats for the good
company! Will try to take a look.
Enjoy. Health prevents me from flying across.
That exhibit is from John Davies, it's in the 'OPEN'
competition and about at then end of the 4000 # Frames.
IIRC, about #4980 on.
I'm sorry to hear about your health problems.
"14. OPEN. ... 674. A Jubilee Reminiscence. The 1890 Penny Postage Jubilee,
John Davies, United Kingdom"
http://www.ny2016.org/images/ny2016articles/2016-04-18-linns-preview.pdf
Quite probably, John gave me the -=frames=- numbering, not the
-=exhibit==- listing number.

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